GrapheneOS is currently defending its use of AI coding tools on Mastodon against complaints by various accounts claiming to be users.
We do not understand where you’re coming from or why you’re so incredibly angry with us. It’s not justified and does not make sense.
I don’t like GOS devs, they are not focused on usablity, but on security (which is completely valid, but it’s a shame that GOS is the most usable mobile OS), but holy based.
If you are disputing AI utility in coding: Recent Linux kernel versions fixed up to 3 times more CVEs in comparision to releases before AI. Also, much less of those CVEs are found in the newer versions, which means new kernel releases contain better code.
I am not a coder in any fashion but this is the make or break frontier for development, particularly FOSS and small scale projects.
AI is evil.
It is an ecological nightmare, socially and economically distructive, prompted on the theft of the knowledge and work of every creative endeavour any person as ever made and pointed at rendering pointless any future aspiration of individual creation someone may have.
The association has been made and it is not going away.
AI is a tool, like a hammer, and should be used as such. And like a tool should require training. The problem is people aren’t using it as a tool and rather look at the hammer and say “go build me a house”. That’s where the issue is. Does a hammer know how to build a house on its own? no. does AI excel at end to end builds? no. but people are using it for said end to end builds.
Devs, vibe coders, god knows who else still to this day fail to understand that AI doesn’t understand how to build things correctly. All the agents care about is getting to a solution as quickly as possible to retain a userbase. that’s it. will what ever it builds scale? no. will it be full of exploits? very likely. will it be able to refactor whatever it wrote? no because it will believe YOU wrote it. so upgrades/improvements to whatever are virtually impossible.
THEN you combine all that with the fact that EVERY AI’s training data, currently, is incredibly out of date. Tech moves too fast for it. So you have people building shit with libraries and what have you that are already out of date and they don’t know that.
Nuclear weapons are a tool, like any other
AI in concept is not evil and could be a good thing .
Unfortunately, its implementation has been at the hands of rapacious, avaricious, and narcissistic über-capitalists, which has inextricably linked AI with the evils you enumerated.
In a different timeline, AI was developed slowly, using heavily-vetted and legally obtained data, and rolled out in an intelligent and safe way.
We are better off leaving the appeal to alternate time lines for another conversation, preferably around science fiction or comics.
As it exists, as it was created, “AI” is evil. It consumes resources we can’t afford to waste and is currently supercharging our pollution indexes and creating what may be a catastrophic collapse of already very fragile and unbalanced social and economic realities.
And because we are already into the sunken cost falacy fase, it will never be rewritten or rebuilt. Hopefully, it will collapse in such horrifying way it will create a cautionary tale, but we are not so lucky, so what we are left with is picking up the bits after it.
This kind of system had to be developed inside laboratories, colleges, universities, research centers, to aid into very niche and specific fields of research, not made to be a mass consumption comodity as it is. But it was, as you very well put it, not done that way.
AI is not evil. It doesn’t have a consciousness. It doesn’t make decisions.
What is evil, are billionaire capitalists having full control over the technology.
What is evil, is the concept of closed-source.
What is evil, is stealing all creative works without attribution or compensation.
What is evil, is seizing essentially all the silicon to build these datacenters, then soak up all the electricity out of the grid and all the water out of the ground.
The problem isn’t the AI, itself. It’s the means that’s the problem…not the ends.
To summarize: something that is being created through highly destructive amd predatory means, by completely deranged people, is not evil.
I can’t disagree more. And to quote myself, again, today:
As it exists, as it was created, “AI” is evil. It consumes resources we can’t afford to waste and is currently supercharging our pollution indexes and creating what may be a catastrophic collapse of already very fragile and unbalanced social and economic realities. And because we are already into the sunken cost falacy fase, it will never be rewritten or rebuilt. Hopefully, it will collapse in such horrifying way it will create a cautionary tale, but we are not so lucky, so what we are left with is picking up the bits after it. This kind of system had to be developed inside laboratories, colleges, universities, research centers, to aid into very niche and specific fields of research, not made to be a mass consumption comodity as it is. But it was, unfortunately, not done that way.
“Ai” isn’t inherently evil. It’s just a tool. An incredibly interesting and marvelous tool, in theory.
What we make of it and how we use it matters. Noone needs stupid chatbots. People should only be allowed to use them after graduating an exam of what they actually are and how they work. In the current state they’re 90% bullshit and harmful.
But LLMs surely have great and reasonable applications. People often fear what they don’t really understand. And LLMs really are a topic that often even “techies” don’t get, so why should a layman.
Yes, they are environmental Desasters. But try to substract all the trillions of silly nonsensical queries millions of people hammer into chatbots, that once were simple search-engine - queries. And it’s not THAT bad anymore.
I’m just going to quote myself, as I’m satisfied enough with the answer I wrote to another reply.
As it exists, as it was created, “AI” is evil. It consumes resources we can’t afford to waste and is currently supercharging our pollution indexes and creating what may be a catastrophic collapse of already very fragile and unbalanced social and economic realities. And because we are already into the sunken cost falacy fase, it will never be rewritten or rebuilt. Hopefully, it will collapse in such horrifying way it will create a cautionary tale, but we are not so lucky, so what we are left with is picking up the bits after it. This kind of system had to be developed inside laboratories, colleges, universities, research centers, to aid into very niche and specific fields of research, not made to be a mass consumption comodity as it is. But it was, unfortunately, not done that way.
You are confusing capitalism and ai. AI is just a tool. Capitalist will use any tool it can to hurt labor. This is currently born out by history recent and ancient. The luddites attacked the looms not because they were evil. But because the bourgeoisie were using them to exclude and attack labor.
“AI is just a tool” - #1 thing said by tools.
Machine guns are tools. As are jets and bombs and missiles.
https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS Here you go, argue with GrapheneOS - it’s an open platform, go ahead and make a masto account and share your thoughts with them. Tell them what you think! The rep who handles their masto account is very well spoken and presents rebuttals of value so I advise you bring your A game.
The rep who handles their masto account is very well spoken and presents rebuttals of value so I advise you bring your A game.
Yeaaaah like deleting their earlier posts to mke themselves look better and claiming the “haters” are coming from K*wi Farms.
https://mas.to/@zzt/117246306723269935
Truly good rebuttals right here!
I’m not going to approach them in any fashion. I have already made my decision about their work/product and the GrapheneOS is not of my interest.
The project must have their reasons but I still insist on what I’ve stated regarding AI in general.
You’re right, but don’t encourage people to brigade GrapheneOS. That’s a donation-funded project.
I’m not brigading anyone. They have their reasons, I have my view regarding AI, that is it. I did not attack the GrapheneOS team in any way nor do I intend to.
My bad, I didn’t think of that. My only thought was “$20 says this chucklehead won’t do squat” because we know.
Oof. Options for good software grows smaller and smaller each day.
I’m with Linus Torvalds and GrapheneOS on this. AI is a useful tool, for all its flaws and negative externalities.
Luckily, the “negative externalities” are mostly made-up bullshit.
The ecological damage is not made up.
Layoffs are made-up?
Layoffs aren’t the problem here…the problem is that society requires people generate their own worth through work, and suddenly a good chunk of that work is now significantly less valuable.
Requiring less work is a good thing. Humans should be striving to minimize work. That’s what humanity is good at.
The problem comes in that while the “input” of AI is, essentially, the collection of all human knowledge…while the output is money for a small handful of people…people who themselves contributed next to nothing to that pile of human knowledge (and in fact are probably running a deficit to it).
That ain’t right. We are all shareholders in the collection of all human knowledge. We should all be getting dividends from its work.
Oh look! Another “leftist” trying to shift blame away from tariff man.
I’m not American if that is what you’re implying. Have a nice day.
Cool well I’ll keep using Lineage until they become massive piles of steaming crap as well.
Fuck AI and all you silicon ball lickers.
A large number of people are using it as an opportunity to promote using operating systems which are the direct opposite of hardened and are much more heavily using AI models including for a lot of code generation.
LineageOS is certainly using it. CalyxOS, /e/ and iodéOS are based on it. CalyxOS is developed by LineageOS core developers.
just curious, are you planning to stop using technology altogether, once there’s nowhere else to migrate to?
I mean, I assume you have thrown away your PC already, since all 3 major OSes use AI in their development
No they don’t.
Windows clearly does. Linux kernel does. MacOS has built-in AI features and XCode has support for AI agents, so one would assume they also use it in development. Do you have some other 3 major OSes I don’t know about? Are you on FreeBSD? Cause uhhh https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/freebsd-ai-assisted-vulnerability-discovery-project-launch/
Linux, Windows, and MacOS devs definitely do use LLMs to help with coding.
In your defense NetBSD does not, but I would not consider NetBSD to be one of the big 3.
Remind me to stay away from that Nazi bar.
Defenders of genAI might as well hoist their vintage early 1940s German flags while they’re ahead! Though I suppose an Italian or Japanese flag from the same time period would also work as well.
good to see smart developers posting reasonable takes, though sad they have to spend time doing it
I guess many people don’t know how much programming has changed over the last year. GrapheneOS is doing a good job telling it like it is.
… telling it like it is.
I know only one type of person that uses that phrase unironically.
Oh yeah. Op is definitely one of those types.
Your take here is so dumb. Many on Lemmy are software engineers (myself included).
We know exactly how “AI” companies have tried to change programming and know how dumb and misguided it is because we understand quality code.
Sure bro. All dumb takes by GrapheneOS, LineageOS, and even Linux.
You understand quality code, unlike Linus Torvalds.
GrapheneOS and Linus have always had a god complex and took the stance their way is the only way. I have never respected them as the arbiters of the correct path others have. (I know LineageOS exists but not much else so can’t speak to them).
I respect them putting in the effort. I respect them trying. I’ve contributed where I can because the overall goal of data privacy and digital freedom is one I agree with. But to hold them on a pedestal as always right is, yes, still a dumb take. I’ve never seen anything that made them the end all be all people seem to hold them up as. Solid voices who’s opinion should hold more than average? Sure. But that’s it.
Yes, Linus is smart and has had good takes and can produce code used by most every computer in one way or another. That doesn’t make him infallible.
Its not about putting linus on a pedestal… its about these anti-AI purists declaring everyone who uses AI a nazi and all code is slop. Big tough guys saying they wont use software with even a single line of generated code.
Go ahead, fork the linux kernel then… these people will never be able to follow through with their purism, unless they go full templeOS mode
I dislike AI overall, but what i’m starting to dislike almost as much are these anti-AI purists who are holier than everyone
I mean this in the worst way possible. Your attitude mirrors the far right and is just as bad a take. That’s their approach to everything.
“Oh, you’re fighting against something you see as a danger to literally the entire world? Well if you’d just stop shoving your opinion in our face we’d be happier.”
You’re an idiot if you think popular and field leaders can’t be wrong.
Mastodon users, yuck
They’re not using it for coding, they’re using it to review code.
No, it started with them saying it was for review, but they added any of their coders can use it if they wish.
One look at their agents.md says otherwise
https://github.com/GrapheneOS/Camera/commit/da7e925ebecdaa2249fabba67a6a791bb8dd384b
There is really no point arguing about such details. AI haters don’t care how exactly you use AI. If you want the best, most secure software possible, you need to let the developers find whatever way there. Imposing arbitrary restrictions won’t work.
No, you need to make sure vulnerabilities aren’t introduced by lazy or underpaid developers.
Its so annoying that all code has been perfect and bug free until these silly LLM people came and made buggy code
I’ll grant that bosses and managers have a valid role for keeping the work on track. But someone who tries that without being qualified themself will cause major problems.
